Scrutable

Bewildered wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:55 pm

Tristan wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:51 am

Also, EDL marches have been banned in the past.

I guess this is similar to disco’s post, but do you really believe that pro-Palestinian protests are basically the same as EDL marches?

The specific nature of the march wasn't key to the analogy - so this has distracted from the point. The analogy was about whether it's OK to detain someone for being "openly [insert religion]" because of the reaction that marchers might have to their presence. I.e. whether it's OK to restrict the liberty of the person at risk of being harmed, rather than the potential perpetrators.

Imagine a pro-Israel march then - would we see a police officer using the line for someone passing in traditional Islamic clothing?

“You are quite openly Muslim. This is a pro-Israel march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

Also the point about whether the individual involved in this incident was just coincidentally passing - or deliberately passing the demo is largely irrelevant. They were not waving placards or shouting slogans. Just walking wearing a small item of traditional religious clothing. And it's not implausible that they were just out and about trying to do what they normally do on a Saturday. There isn't really any other way they can get round the city without walking.

Yes, yes I believe we would

bob sterman wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:21 am

Also the point about whether the individual involved in this incident was just coincidentally passing - or deliberately passing the demo is largely irrelevant. They were not waving placards or shouting slogans. Just walking wearing a small item of traditional religious clothing. And it's not implausible that they were just out and about trying to do what they normally do on a Saturday. There isn't really any other way they can get round the city without walking.

From what Gfamily posted above, this doesn't seem to be what happened.

We routinely stop large groups of white men from walking down the street celebrating their culture because of fear of conflict.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:33 pm

bob sterman wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:21 am

Also the point about whether the individual involved in this incident was just coincidentally passing - or deliberately passing the demo is largely irrelevant. They were not waving placards or shouting slogans. Just walking wearing a small item of traditional religious clothing. And it's not implausible that they were just out and about trying to do what they normally do on a Saturday. There isn't really any other way they can get round the city without walking.

From what Gfamily posted above, this doesn't seem to be what happened.

The man in the video is Gideon Falter. He is chairman of the Campaign Against Antisemitism, a group whose tactics have attracted criticism even from fellow campaigners against antisemitism such as Margaret Hodge and the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Antisemitism. I don't know enough to comment on the rights and wrongs of this particular incident, or of the CAA in general, but given the CAA's active engagement in issues related to these marches it seems unlikely that Falter accidentally ran into one of them while performing his normal Saturday errands.

More detail on the full exchange
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-foo ... h-13120104

Tristan wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 21, 2024 6:51 am

Bewildered wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:55 pm

Tristan wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:51 am

Also, EDL marches have been banned in the past.

I guess this is similar to disco’s post, but do you really believe that pro-Palestinian protests are basically the same as EDL marches?

Not to the same extent. EDL marches are pretty much exclusively racist. These matches just include a not insignificant racist element.

Yes, sounds likely though I don’t know the proportions. I guess the less widespread the marches become the larger the % of racists will be as the nutcases probably keep turning out as long as they are allowed.

But don’t you think that difference is important in deciding whether a march should be banned ?

Even on the initial story, "Nessie" over on ISF, who's a former Scottish cop, and someone who is now very critical of the police, said that it sounded like someone in a Celtic shirt trying to walk through an Orange Order march, which he, and many other Scottish cops have had to deal with. And it would have been dealt with similarly, possibly with an arrest if the person persisted.

bob sterman wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:21 am

Bewildered wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 11:55 pm

Tristan wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:51 am

Also, EDL marches have been banned in the past.

I guess this is similar to disco’s post, but do you really believe that pro-Palestinian protests are basically the same as EDL marches?

The specific nature of the march wasn't key to the analogy - so this has distracted from the point. The analogy was about whether it's OK to detain someone for being "openly [insert religion]" because of the reaction that marchers might have to their presence. I.e. whether it's OK to restrict the liberty of the person at risk of being harmed, rather than the potential perpetrators.

Imagine a pro-Israel march then - would we see a police officer using the line for someone passing in traditional Islamic clothing?

“You are quite openly Muslim. This is a pro-Israel march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

Not sure you why you are replying this way when you can see from the quote my question was to a comment about banning marches, and I think the nature of the March is clearly relevant to that.

You can also see my post immediately above that one for what I think of “You are quite openly Jewish” wording (awful). However I would have no objections to the police preventing counter protesters crossing over into the EDL march and keeping them separate.

bob sterman wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 21, 2024 7:21 am

Also the point about whether the individual involved in this incident was just coincidentally passing - or deliberately passing the demo is largely irrelevant. They were not waving placards or shouting slogans. Just walking wearing a small item of traditional religious clothing. And it's not implausible that they were just out and about trying to do what they normally do on a Saturday. There isn't really any other way they can get round the city without walking.

Well I don’t know, that doesn’t seem to fit what what else is being posted here.

Mr Falter, the head of the Campaign Against Antisemitism who was wearing a kippah, was described by an officer as "openly Jewish".

He later told the BBC he felt he "was being treated like a criminal for being Jewish" and that police were "curtailing the rights of law-abiding Londoners" to walk wherever they like freely.

I was out of the country when this story broke so I'm catching up.

Walking wherever you like freely is not a defense for a provocative act, whether that's trespassing or towards people who are likely to react badly and then not accepting the consequences. There is no inherent 'right'.

Yes, the police handled this very badly but it's not the black and white issue some of the media are claiming.

Also, he was breaking Sabbath to be there.

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:33 pm

Also, he was breaking Sabbath to be there.

Even strict Jewish religious law does in fact permit the faithful to walk to a synagogue on Shabbat. Synagogues would have a problem without at least that. Many things are not permitted, but walking locally is fine.

I can understand why the presence of eruvs, which allow strictly observant Jews to do things out of doors on Shabbat which are otherwise prohibited, might mislead one into thinking that. One of the more annoying prohibitions, that eruvs are specifically designed to relieve, is the prohibition of carrying things from one place to another.

IvanV wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:47 pm

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:33 pm

Also, he was breaking Sabbath to be there.

Even strict Jewish religious law does in fact permit the faithful to walk to a synagogue on Shabbat. Synagogues would have a problem without at least that. Many things are not permitted, but walking locally is fine.

I can understand why the presence of eruvs, which allow strictly observant Jews to do things out of doors on Shabbat which are otherwise prohibited, might mislead one into thinking that. One of the more annoying prohibitions, that eruvs are specifically designed to relieve, is the prohibition of carrying things from one place to another.

Slightly off topic but there’s a really good episode in the first season of the Good Wife about Eruv wires.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/e ... gious-home

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 2:33 pm

Walking wherever you like freely is not a defense for a provocative act, whether that's trespassing or towards people who are likely to react badly and then not accepting the consequences. There is no inherent 'right'.

If the presence of a Jew is a provocative act then there’s a problem with these marches. Whether he was there on purpose enough is irrelevant. Even if he was there specifically to demonstrate that it’s not safe for Jews to be present then the fact his point was proved (as the police reaction indicated) speaks volumes.

Semi-related (it can’t from a discussion about all this) but we seem to have a former Guardian associate editor who thinks the government of British Jews is 3,000 miles away.

Tristan wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 4:38 pm

If the presence of a Jew is a provocative act then there’s a problem with these marches. Whether he was there on purpose enough is irrelevant. Even if he was there specifically to demonstrate that it’s not safe for Jews to be present then the fact his point was proved (as the police reaction indicated) speaks volumes.

Indeed. People deliberately going where they are not wanted (and are potentially in danger) specifically to make a point has a long history as a form of civil disobedience (to highlight a problem).

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:19 am

More detail on the full exchange
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-foo ... h-13120104

An interesting response here is that the Met have acted similarly in reverse, to prevent Muslims disrupting Jewish protests, or protesting in heavily Jewish areas.

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:58 am

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:19 am

More detail on the full exchange
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-foo ... h-13120104

An interesting response here is that the Met have acted similarly in reverse, to prevent Muslims disrupting Jewish protests, or protesting in heavily Jewish areas.

It proves that protest marches are a waste of time, rarely making the news.

But a single well executed stunt can win huge national publicity. This individual probably tried multiple times to trigger an event, eventually got lucky, and then played the hand to perfection. Palestinian activists need to try the same.

It is perfect for the twitter world. Fundamentally it is more fun to get outraged by tiny local events than to get outraged by murdered music festival teenagers and murdered Gaza children.

lpm wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:27 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:58 am

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:19 am

More detail on the full exchange
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-foo ... h-13120104

An interesting response here is that the Met have acted similarly in reverse, to prevent Muslims disrupting Jewish protests, or protesting in heavily Jewish areas.

It proves that protest marches are a waste of time, rarely making the news.

But a single well executed stunt can win huge national publicity. This individual probably tried multiple times to trigger an event, eventually got lucky, and then played the hand to perfection. Palestinian activists need to try the same.

It is perfect for the twitter world. Fundamentally it is more fun to get outraged by tiny local events than to get outraged by murdered music festival teenagers and murdered Gaza children.

Of course, they've been aided and abetted by useful idiots and bad faith actors who have spread their claims to random Internet forums and other places.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:43 am

lpm wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:27 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:58 am

An interesting response here is that the Met have acted similarly in reverse, to prevent Muslims disrupting Jewish protests, or protesting in heavily Jewish areas.

It proves that protest marches are a waste of time, rarely making the news.

But a single well executed stunt can win huge national publicity. This individual probably tried multiple times to trigger an event, eventually got lucky, and then played the hand to perfection. Palestinian activists need to try the same.

It is perfect for the twitter world. Fundamentally it is more fun to get outraged by tiny local events than to get outraged by murdered music festival teenagers and murdered Gaza children.

Of course, they've been aided and abetted by useful idiots and bad faith actors who have spread their claims to random Internet forums and other places.

Oh do f.ck off with your passive agressive b.llsh.t

lpm wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:27 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:58 am

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:19 am

More detail on the full exchange
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-foo ... h-13120104

An interesting response here is that the Met have acted similarly in reverse, to prevent Muslims disrupting Jewish protests, or protesting in heavily Jewish areas.

It proves that protest marches are a waste of time, rarely making the news.

But a single well executed stunt can win huge national publicity. This individual probably tried multiple times to trigger an event, eventually got lucky, and then played the hand to perfection. Palestinian activists need to try the same.

It is perfect for the twitter world. Fundamentally it is more fun to get outraged by tiny local events than to get outraged by murdered music festival teenagers and murdered Gaza children.

"In the Sky News footage, the activist insisted he was only trying to cross the road down which the demonstration was passing, but this is disputed by an officer in the new footage, who said Mr Falter had deliberately walked head-on into the crowd and accused him of being "disingenuous" and seeking to "antagonise" the marchers."

Seems like he was looking for a fight and not just trying to cross a road.

Tristan wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:31 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:43 am

lpm wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:27 am

It proves that protest marches are a waste of time, rarely making the news.

But a single well executed stunt can win huge national publicity. This individual probably tried multiple times to trigger an event, eventually got lucky, and then played the hand to perfection. Palestinian activists need to try the same.

It is perfect for the twitter world. Fundamentally it is more fun to get outraged by tiny local events than to get outraged by murdered music festival teenagers and murdered Gaza children.

Of course, they've been aided and abetted by useful idiots and bad faith actors who have spread their claims to random Internet forums and other places.

Oh do f.ck off with your passive agressive b.llsh.t

I wouldn't need to be passive aggressive if you'd do some basic diligence of what you are posting.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:06 pm

Tristan wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:31 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:43 am

Of course, they've been aided and abetted by useful idiots and bad faith actors who have spread their claims to random Internet forums and other places.

Oh do f.ck off with your passive agressive b.llsh.t

I wouldn't need to be passive aggressive if you'd do some basic diligence of what you are posting.

My original post still stands. Whether he was trying to make a point or not is irrelevant. The point was made. A visibly Jewish man is apparently, according to the police, not safe there. This is at a march we’ve repeatedly told are safe.

There was also the Iranian (I think) guy who isn’t safe holding up a sign at these marches that says “Hamas are terrorists”.

If these marches don’t have antisemitic or terrorist supporting elements there why would either of these things be a problem?

Was going to post but then realised everything I was going to say had already been said. Teach me to read to the end of a thread before posting I guess....