Scrutable

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:17 pm**

EACLucifer wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:25 am
P.J. Denyer wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:35 pm
GeenDienst wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:23 am

Then again, Corbyn can't but have noticed his dire personal ratings. Wonder if it ever occurred to him someone else might have been better placed...
Corbyn definitely has problems, but what worries me is that for every Corbyn problem there's a Johnson problem yet look what just happened, Ed Miliband didn't have these problems yet look what happened. Corbyn was a gift to the Tories this election but I worry that the leader wouldn't have mattered, whoever was in place would have been demonised and when people can be persuaded that talking to Gerry Adams thirty years ago is more pertinent than holding back a report into Russian electoral interference now and that tge best way to show your hatred of ten years of Tory Austerity is to vote Tory, or historically what your father didn't actually say and how you eat a bacon sandwich are vital issues, what is the way forward?
While to an extent this is true, we won't get anywhere if people keep pretending that Corbyn's problems were the press got excited because he talked to Gerry Adams thirty years ago.

He picked a stalinist who praised the Taliban and IS as his communications director. He did propaganda work for the fascist Iranian regime. He tried to deny genocide in the Balkans so he had an excuse to oppose Britain's life-saving intervention in Kosovo.

Labour candidates were being selected after posting holocaust denial articles off American Neo-Nazi websites.

I'm not arguing against that, my point is that "liked an anti-semetic mural on FB" ran and ran and ran, "piccaninies" with "water melon smiles" well, that's just something he wrote years ago, the IRA story WAS being mentioned right up to polling day, the Russian interference report rapidly dropped off the radar. A random, virtually unknown Labour MP caught on a hot mic badmouthing Corbyn was as big a story as a former Conservative Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister taking to the stage specifically to warn against electing Johnson. Then historically with Miliband and the attacks on his father and the bacon sandwich incident. I'm not arguing for Corbyn here, I'm expressing the fear that in this environment any leader that Labour put forward will be villified, and perhaps even more worryingly given our current PM, the Conservative leader's failings will be under emphasised, to the point where any Labour leader is unelectable unless they go cap in hand to the press barons and sell their souls to Skeletor and the Brothers from Weirdo Island.

The slow motion car crash that was Corbyn needs to be learned from, but just as denying that aspect is dangerous so is ignoring the part played by the media.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:55 pm**

P.J. Denyer wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:17 pm
EACLucifer wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:25 am
P.J. Denyer wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:35 pm

Corbyn definitely has problems, but what worries me is that for every Corbyn problem there's a Johnson problem yet look what just happened, Ed Miliband didn't have these problems yet look what happened. Corbyn was a gift to the Tories this election but I worry that the leader wouldn't have mattered, whoever was in place would have been demonised and when people can be persuaded that talking to Gerry Adams thirty years ago is more pertinent than holding back a report into Russian electoral interference now and that tge best way to show your hatred of ten years of Tory Austerity is to vote Tory, or historically what your father didn't actually say and how you eat a bacon sandwich are vital issues, what is the way forward?
While to an extent this is true, we won't get anywhere if people keep pretending that Corbyn's problems were the press got excited because he talked to Gerry Adams thirty years ago.

He picked a stalinist who praised the Taliban and IS as his communications director. He did propaganda work for the fascist Iranian regime. He tried to deny genocide in the Balkans so he had an excuse to oppose Britain's life-saving intervention in Kosovo.

Labour candidates were being selected after posting holocaust denial articles off American Neo-Nazi websites.
I'm not arguing against that, my point is that "liked an anti-semetic mural on FB" ran and ran and ran, "piccaninies" with "water melon smiles" well, that's just something he wrote years ago, the IRA story WAS being mentioned right up to polling day, the Russian interference report rapidly dropped off the radar. A random, virtually unknown Labour MP caught on a hot mic badmouthing Corbyn was as big a story as a former Conservative Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister taking to the stage specifically to warn against electing Johnson. Then historically with Miliband and the attacks on his father and the bacon sandwich incident. I'm not arguing for Corbyn here, I'm expressing the fear that in this environment any leader that Labour put forward will be villified, and perhaps even more worryingly given our current PM, the Conservative leader's failings will be under emphasised, to the point where any Labour leader is unelectable unless they go cap in hand to the press barons and sell their souls to Skeletor and the Brothers from Weirdo Island.

The slow motion car crash that was Corbyn needs to be learned from, but just as denying that aspect is dangerous so is ignoring the part played by the media.

Yeah. Agreed. Sadly, nowt's going to happen with the media on the whole, and the tankies now demanding the media be dismantled aren't exactly helping with public image.

Next leader needs to be sound on substance, but honestly needs to be bl..dy perfect on optics. Perhaps the next leader might try appointing someone other than a Stalinist who praised the Taliban as communications director?

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:34 pm**

There will always be the Tory press.

But, again, we had the poll that said that dropping Corbyn would erase a significant deficit against the Tories and put Labour into a comfrtable lead. Just by dumping Corbyn.

This was a Corbyn problem, not so much a Labour one.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:15 pm**

P.J. Denyer wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:17 pm

I'm not arguing against that, my point is that "liked an anti-semetic mural on FB" ran and ran and ran, "piccaninies" with "water melon smiles" well, that's just something he wrote years ago, the IRA story WAS being mentioned right up to polling day, the Russian interference report rapidly dropped off the radar. A random, virtually unknown Labour MP caught on a hot mic badmouthing Corbyn was as big a story as a former Conservative Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister taking to the stage specifically to warn against electing Johnson. Then historically with Miliband and the attacks on his father and the bacon sandwich incident. I'm not arguing for Corbyn here, I'm expressing the fear that in this environment any leader that Labour put forward will be villified, and perhaps even more worryingly given our current PM, the Conservative leader's failings will be under emphasised, to the point where any Labour leader is unelectable unless they go cap in hand to the press barons and sell their souls to Skeletor and the Brothers from Weirdo Island.

The slow motion car crash that was Corbyn needs to be learned from, but just as denying that aspect is dangerous so is ignoring the part played by the media.

The media and their foreign backers.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:25 pm**

When someone starts talking about "foreign backers" I can't help thinking I'm hearing a dog whistle.

If you've got a point, make it.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:38 pm**

JQH wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:25 pm When someone starts talking about "foreign backers" I can't help thinking I'm hearing a dog whistle.

If you've got a point, make it.

Its not Russia we have to worry about. Its America.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:44 pm**

I still haven't quite finished the bender I went on Thursday night. Still, the shops are all closed tomorrow and I've got to drop ddb's sis at the airport tomorrow afternoon. We got so much to do next week. This bender must stop now.
Please Spanish authorities, play nice. Must be sober. Must.be.sober. This is muy importante.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:49 pm**

Herainestold wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:38 pm
JQH wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:25 pm When someone starts talking about "foreign backers" I can't help thinking I'm hearing a dog whistle.

If you've got a point, make it.
Its not Russia we have to worry about. Its America.

Who are these American backers, which organisations are they backing, and how are they backing them?

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:55 pm**

jdc wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:49 pm
Herainestold wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:38 pm
JQH wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:25 pm When someone starts talking about "foreign backers" I can't help thinking I'm hearing a dog whistle.

If you've got a point, make it.
Its not Russia we have to worry about. Its America.
Who are these American backers, which organisations are they backing, and how are they backing them?

Trump, the Koch brothers, American media in general. Backing Johnson, the conservatives, Brexit party. Money, influence, media time. Its all out in the open but people turn a blind eye.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:06 pm**

Nah mate, you're coming at this arse backwards. Yeah, a lot of people are stupid, malleable and generally thick. But a f.ckload of them are just c.nts.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:47 pm**

Herainestold wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:55 pm
jdc wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:49 pm
Herainestold wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:38 pm

Its not Russia we have to worry about. Its America.
Who are these American backers, which organisations are they backing, and how are they backing them?
Trump, the Koch brothers, American media in general. Backing Johnson, the conservatives, Brexit party. Money, influence, media time. Its all out in the open but people turn a blind eye.

Well, I'm not sure I agree but thanks for spelling it out.

(I've not heard of any of those three donating money to BJ, the Tories, or the Brexit party; I'm not sure how coverage in American media influences British elections given that British voters tend to follow British media; Trump backed Boris, that much is true - but given how much we hate that orange prick I'm not sure it actually helped to influence the electorate in Boris's favour.)

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:31 pm**

jdc wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:47 pm... Trump backed Boris, that much is true - but given how much we hate that orange prick I'm not sure it actually helped to influence the electorate in Boris's favour.)

Well we hate Boris too, it turns out the opinions expressed on Scrutable aren't wholly representative of the British electorate.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:44 pm**

shpalman wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:31 pm
jdc wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:47 pm... Trump backed Boris, that much is true - but given how much we hate that orange prick I'm not sure it actually helped to influence the electorate in Boris's favour.)
Well we hate Boris too, it turns out the opinions expressed on Scrutable aren't wholly representative of the British electorate.

I meant the British, not Scrutable. Didn't the Tories ask Trump not to back Boris because he was so toxic over here?

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:48 pm**

Opti wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:44 pm I still haven't quite finished the bender I went on Thursday night. Still, the shops are all closed tomorrow and I've got to drop ddb's sis at the airport tomorrow afternoon. We got so much to do next week. This bender must stop now.
Please Spanish authorities, play nice. Must be sober. Must.be.sober. This is muy importante.

Being almost out of cheap wine and bourbon, the question now is fine wine or homebrew?

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:50 pm**

Opti wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:06 pm Nah mate, you're coming at this arse backwards. Yeah, a lot of people are stupid, malleable and generally thick. But a f.ckload of them are just c.nts.

True dat.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:18 pm**

jdc wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:47 pm
Well, I'm not sure I agree but thanks for spelling it out.

(I've not heard of any of those three donating money to BJ, the Tories, or the Brexit party; I'm not sure how coverage in American media influences British elections given that British voters tend to follow British media; Trump backed Boris, that much is true - but given how much we hate that orange prick I'm not sure it actually helped to influence the electorate in Boris's favour.)

You haven't read the Carol Cadwallader stuff?
If there is one thing the yanks absolutely did not want it was a Corbyn government. There was extensive use of dark money, not so much to support Boris, but to undermine Corbyn. A constant stream of allegations in the media. You don't think spomebody was being paid to dig that stuff up?

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:31 pm**

P.J. Denyer wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:48 pm
Opti wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:44 pm I still haven't quite finished the bender I went on Thursday night. Still, the shops are all closed tomorrow and I've got to drop ddb's sis at the airport tomorrow afternoon. We got so much to do next week. This bender must stop now.
Please Spanish authorities, play nice. Must be sober. Must.be.sober. This is muy importante.
Being almost out of cheap wine and bourbon, the question now is fine wine or homebrew?

I'm out of homebrew until I bottle the blueberry sour, but there's 12 bottles of homemade wine, two gallons of cider, a gallon of homemade mead and 4 bottles of quite scary blueberry wine.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:01 pm**

Herainestold wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:18 pm
jdc wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:47 pm
Well, I'm not sure I agree but thanks for spelling it out.

(I've not heard of any of those three donating money to BJ, the Tories, or the Brexit party; I'm not sure how coverage in American media influences British elections given that British voters tend to follow British media; Trump backed Boris, that much is true - but given how much we hate that orange prick I'm not sure it actually helped to influence the electorate in Boris's favour.)
You haven't read the Carol Cadwallader stuff?
If there is one thing the yanks absolutely did not want it was a Corbyn government. There was extensive use of dark money, not so much to support Boris, but to undermine Corbyn. A constant stream of allegations in the media. You don't think spomebody was being paid to dig that stuff up?

I haven't, no. Did she show that the Koch brothers were funding one of the three you named above (BJ/Con/Brexit party)?

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:14 pm**

If there is one thing "the yanks" don't want, rest assured, it's not anything to do with a UK election.

Also, to the extent that "yanks" actually know or care about the UK election, their views are similar to those of the UK's own electorate: some want one thing, some want the other.

Posted: **Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:47 pm**

dyqik wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:31 pm
P.J. Denyer wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:48 pm
Opti wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:44 pm I still haven't quite finished the bender I went on Thursday night. Still, the shops are all closed tomorrow and I've got to drop ddb's sis at the airport tomorrow afternoon. We got so much to do next week. This bender must stop now.
Please Spanish authorities, play nice. Must be sober. Must.be.sober. This is muy importante.
Being almost out of cheap wine and bourbon, the question now is fine wine or homebrew?
I'm out of homebrew until I bottle the blueberry sour, but there's 12 bottles of homemade wine, two gallons of cider, a gallon of homemade mead and 4 bottles of quite scary blueberry wine.

Yeah I have a gallon of cider/apple wine (its about 13%) and a gallon of crabapple ready for bottling. A gallon of sloe wine, about 16 bottles of blackberry wine and one of baked apple wine (it's too good I've drunk it before it was even aged) on the home brew side. Then about a case of good wine (I sell wine so I occasionally pick up some decent stuff from the bin ends).

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:50 am**

bolo wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:14 pm If there is one thing "the yanks" don't want, rest assured, it's not anything to do with a UK election.

Also, to the extent that "yanks" actually know or care about the UK election, their views are similar to those of the UK's own electorate: some want one thing, some want the other.

As it pertains to the average person, I think you're right. Most people don't care one way or the other about an election in an obscure foreign country and of thos who do, their views aren't monolithic.
I'm thinking of the peop-le who do care, and have the means to influence foreign elections. Some of the leftier Dems were Corbyn fans, like Sanders,
but the establishment and those with money would be horrified at a corbyn government. Those are the ones most likely to infiltrate the election. Unfortunate for Labour that the Russians, as well favoured Conservatives. Poor guy never had a chance. Even if we deluded ourselves into thinking that he did.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:21 pm**

He never had a chance because he was a bad candidate with an unpopular agenda. No foreign infiltration was required.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:27 pm**

bolo wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:21 pm He never had a chance because he was a bad candidate with an unpopular agenda. No foreign infiltration was required.

The Labour policies are pretty popular, individually, with something like 70% support for many of them, provided you remove the Labour branding.

There is a decade or so long history of cross-pollination between the Tory/Brexit far right and the US (and Australian) far right - shared political advisors and strategists, common elements such as Cambridge Analytica type operations. And of course shared ownership of some of their media (News International). That's how Farage appears alongside Trump and his hanger-ons, How Katie Hopkins became a darling of the US far right, etc.

None of that amounts to "infiltration" though. Cooperation would be a much more accurate description.

Fundamentally the issue is that Corbyn didn't have the ability to break through the right wing traditional media bias, which is an essential talent required in any party leader.

Separately, the Koch brothers aren't particularly hot on Trump and Trumpism. They've shied away from supporting him directly, and have spent far more on supporting the traditional social conservatism.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:04 pm**

Policies that are individually popular can add up to an unpopular agenda. Sometimes this is because of branding (Obamacare is another example). Sometimes it's because the collective effect is just too much all at once, or because multiple policies that appeal to different audiences add up to everyone finding something to dislike rather than everyone finding something to like, or because people who like the policies in the abstract don't actually believe they would be implemented effectively by the party proposing them, or etc. etc.

The bottom line is that for this election, Labour set out a policy agenda, and the voters looked at it and said "no thanks". Or rather, "no, hell no". If Labour want to actually win elections, they need to forget about whose fault it was, and the biased media, and foreign infiltration, and the Iraq War for god's sake, and start figuring out how to appeal to voters.

Posted: **Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:07 pm**

If Labour want to actually win elections, they need to forget about whose fault it was

No, they really, really don't. Once again, it wasn't the policies, so much (though their unfocussed over promising everything probably didn't help), their main problem was the leadership.

They can't start appealing to voters until they start to understand just what they did. The True Faithful are already building a false narrative around Brexit just so they can carry on as usual, with some Momentum/McCluskey puppet like Long-Bailey nominally in charge.

Scrutable

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