Scrutable

Stephanie wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:45 am And the online safety bill has some interesting stuff in it, for eg making a digital pile on a criminal offence, and increasing protection for MPs, which makes sense given MPs can't bear to hear from their constituents as it is https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... afety-bill

I see that age verification is back on the agenda.

Mrs May's government put up a bill on this. But it was quietly dropped at some convenient point for dropping things, an election, a change of leadershp or something. The analysis on the proposal on that occasion was, it was as if it had been designed deliberately to expose people to identity theft if they wanted to go to such websites. It struck me that Mrs May probably thought "serve them right for wanting to use such a website", for it appeared to me that Mrs May was the kind of person who might think like that. But I guess wiser heads realised that an entirely avoidable epidemic of identity theft was a very bad idea, and so the bill was quietly dropped.

It seems that age verification has been normal in Germany for quite some time, and it doesn't seem to be controversial. The age verification methods and agents carrying out are subject to proper state supervision. Doubtless therefore it can be properly designed. I suppose we will see soon if that is what is now proposed here.

Though I see mention that possession of a "credit card" (whether the journo means that literally, or just means plastic money, I don't know) would be adequate. I provided my school-age daughter with a pre-loaded payment card, because you often have to pay for stuff with plastic these days. It's got my name on it, because it was too difficult to put her name on it. I can log on and see what she has spent. I think it is far from unusual to see secondary schoolkids with bits of plastic these days. I think some of her friends had it a couple of years before she did. She quickly discovered she could buy stuff on-line with it. So I wonder if that would get schoolkids past age verification?

Surely a VPN would be easier

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am It seems that age verification has been normal in Germany for quite some time, and it doesn't seem to be controversial. The age verification methods and agents carrying out are subject to proper state supervision. Doubtless therefore it can be properly designed. I suppose we will see soon if that is what is now proposed here.

France is also bringing in age verification, and across the EU GDPR means that any web site collecting personal data should establish the age of the person whose data is being collected (as consent from a parent or guardian is needed to collect data on children aged below the national age of consent). Though as far as I know a specific system hasn't been mandated, so web site owners need to take reasonable measures.

I don't know how the German and French systems work, but I'll guess that we could add this to the everlasting debate about universal government ID systems. When everyone has a government issued ID then establishing age isn't very complicated.

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am Though I see mention that possession of a "credit card" (whether the journo means that literally, or just means plastic money, I don't know) would be adequate. I provided my school-age daughter with a pre-loaded payment card, because you often have to pay for stuff with plastic these days. It's got my name on it, because it was too difficult to put her name on it. I can log on and see what she has spent. I think it is far from unusual to see secondary schoolkids with bits of plastic these days. I think some of her friends had it a couple of years before she did. She quickly discovered she could buy stuff on-line with it. So I wonder if that would get schoolkids past age verification?

Different fees usually apply to credit and debit cards, so I assume that vendors can tell the difference. As far as I know children aren't allowed to obtain credit in European countries. Though of course relying upon credit cards for age verification is a problem for those adults that don't have one.

1) There need to be constraints on freedom of speech

2) Currently those constraints are in the wrong places - they were built for physical existence and haven't adapted to online existence yet

3) Got to think long term - what do we want in place in 2050?

4) Bad actors will aim to place constraints in the wrong places and will be clever about it

5) Good actors will get hopelessly confused and will be stupid about it

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:54 am Different fees usually apply to credit and debit cards, so I assume that vendors can tell the difference. As far as I know children aren't allowed to obtain credit in European countries. Though of course relying upon credit cards for age verification is a problem for those adults that don't have one.

But I don't know if the use of the words "credit card" meant that literally, or just plastic money. The "credit card" was only one option.

It seems that there are specific children's bank accounts that provide a debit card, so my method of giving my daughter plastic was not a necessary way of doing it. It just happened to be convenient and low effort, given that I already had this prepaid debit card, for a specific purpose which in practice didn't happen.

Yes, this country has identification discrimination, by requiring identification, and not providing a uniform system to facilitate it. Yet there has been persistent campaign against it on "human rights" grounds. The politicians who didn't like it on "human rights" grounds have a substantial overlap with those who want to withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights, repeal the Human Rights Act, etc.

The internet has completely gone to sh.t.

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am
I see that age verification is back on the agenda.

You think they could come up with something like an age-verification Captcha so if you want to access *ahem* adult interest material you would have to do something like correctly identify all the members of Rainbow, explain why you would put Grolsch bottle-tops in your shoes or correctly perform all the movements to Whigfield's "Saturday Night" dance in front of your webcam.

I can see no downsides here.

lpm wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:22 pm 1) There need to be constraints on freedom of speech

2) Currently those constraints are in the wrong places - they were built for physical existence and haven't adapted to online existence yet

3) Got to think long term - what do we want in place in 2050?

4) Bad actors will aim to place constraints in the wrong places and will be clever about it

5) Good actors will get hopelessly confused and will be stupid about it

I wouldn't assume that bad actors will necessarily be clever about it. They will almost certainly attempt to place constraints in the wrong places, but get confused and be stupid about it too.

Little waster wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:18 pm

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am
I see that age verification is back on the agenda.

You think they could come up with something like an age-verification Captcha so if you want to access *ahem* adult interest material you would have to do something like correctly identify all the members of Rainbow, explain why you would put Grolsch bottle-tops in your shoes or correctly perform all the movements to Whigfield's "Saturday Night" dance in front of your webcam.

I can see no downsides here.

You're showing your age Waster. An 18 year old asked those questions might need to ask for some help from their grandparents.

Little waster wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:18 pm

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am
I see that age verification is back on the agenda.

You think they could come up with something like an age-verification Captcha so if you want to access *ahem* adult interest material you would have to do something like correctly identify all the members of Rainbow, explain why you would put Grolsch bottle-tops in your shoes or correctly perform all the movements to Whigfield's "Saturday Night" dance in front of your webcam.

I can see no downsides here.

Click all the pictures which have a former Blue Peter presenter

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:44 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:54 am Different fees usually apply to credit and debit cards, so I assume that vendors can tell the difference. As far as I know children aren't allowed to obtain credit in European countries. Though of course relying upon credit cards for age verification is a problem for those adults that don't have one.

But I don't know if the use of the words "credit card" meant that literally, or just plastic money. The "credit card" was only one option.

It seems that there are specific children's bank accounts that provide a debit card, so my method of giving my daughter plastic was not a necessary way of doing it. It just happened to be convenient and low effort, given that I already had this prepaid debit card, for a specific purpose which in practice didn't happen.

In my experience (when buying alcohol online) they specifically want a credit card. But other places may be different.

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:27 pm

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:44 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:54 am Different fees usually apply to credit and debit cards, so I assume that vendors can tell the difference. As far as I know children aren't allowed to obtain credit in European countries. Though of course relying upon credit cards for age verification is a problem for those adults that don't have one.

But I don't know if the use of the words "credit card" meant that literally, or just plastic money. The "credit card" was only one option.

It seems that there are specific children's bank accounts that provide a debit card, so my method of giving my daughter plastic was not a necessary way of doing it. It just happened to be convenient and low effort, given that I already had this prepaid debit card, for a specific purpose which in practice didn't happen.

In my experience (when buying alcohol online) they specifically want a credit card. But other places may be different.

I would expect it to be an actual credit card too.
As has been pointed out, the different fees that they get charged (and sometimes pass on to you) mean that an online retailer can clearly immediately see if a particular card being used is credit or debit.

tom p wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:31 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:27 pm

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:44 pm
But I don't know if the use of the words "credit card" meant that literally, or just plastic money. The "credit card" was only one option.

It seems that there are specific children's bank accounts that provide a debit card, so my method of giving my daughter plastic was not a necessary way of doing it. It just happened to be convenient and low effort, given that I already had this prepaid debit card, for a specific purpose which in practice didn't happen.

In my experience (when buying alcohol online) they specifically want a credit card. But other places may be different.

I would expect it to be an actual credit card too.
As has been pointed out, the different fees that they get charged (and sometimes pass on to you) mean that an online retailer can clearly immediately see if a particular card being used is credit or debit.

The first digits of the card number identify the issuer and therefore what kind of card it is. E.g. note the difference between VISA and VISA Electron.

tom p wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:26 pm

Little waster wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:18 pm

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am
I see that age verification is back on the agenda.

You think they could come up with something like an age-verification Captcha so if you want to access *ahem* adult interest material you would have to do something like correctly identify all the members of Rainbow, explain why you would put Grolsch bottle-tops in your shoes or correctly perform all the movements to Whigfield's "Saturday Night" dance in front of your webcam.

I can see no downsides here.

Click all the pictures which have a former Blue Peter presenter person of interest to Operation Yewtree

FIFthe80s

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:45 am

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am It seems that age verification has been normal in Germany for quite some time, and it doesn't seem to be controversial. The age verification methods and agents carrying out are subject to proper state supervision. Doubtless therefore it can be properly designed. I suppose we will see soon if that is what is now proposed here.

France is also bringing in age verification, and across the EU GDPR means that any web site collecting personal data should establish the age of the person whose data is being collected (as consent from a parent or guardian is needed to collect data on children aged below the national age of consent). Though as far as I know a specific system hasn't been mandated, so web site owners need to take reasonable measures.

I don't know how the German and French systems work, but I'll guess that we could add this to the everlasting debate about universal government ID systems. When everyone has a government issued ID then establishing age isn't very complicated.

From where are you both getting the idea that Germany has such a system? I live there and do occasionally have to visit various types of website for errr ... research purposes, and have never seen any age verification systems. The only time I can ever remember websites asking for your age is when visiting brewery/distillery sites. In these cases only a DOB needs to be entered without any proof.

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:26 pm

Little waster wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:18 pm

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am
I see that age verification is back on the agenda.

You think they could come up with something like an age-verification Captcha so if you want to access *ahem* adult interest material you would have to do something like correctly identify all the members of Rainbow, explain why you would put Grolsch bottle-tops in your shoes or correctly perform all the movements to Whigfield's "Saturday Night" dance in front of your webcam.

I can see no downsides here.

You're showing your age Waster. An 18 year old asked those questions might need to ask for some help from their grandparents.

I can't be going around facing up to my mortality, I'm sticking with my internal head canon which goes:-

"About 50 years ago" = WW2
"About 20 years ago" = ~1980
"About 10 years ago" = ~1995
"About 5 years ago" = The Millenium
"Day before yesterday = 2010
"About now" = 2015.
"The distant far future" = 2020



ETA: I'm sure there's an xkcd for this. I think I read it last week, just before the pandemic started ...

WFJ wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:44 pm

Woodchopper wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:45 am

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am It seems that age verification has been normal in Germany for quite some time, and it doesn't seem to be controversial. The age verification methods and agents carrying out are subject to proper state supervision. Doubtless therefore it can be properly designed. I suppose we will see soon if that is what is now proposed here.

France is also bringing in age verification, and across the EU GDPR means that any web site collecting personal data should establish the age of the person whose data is being collected (as consent from a parent or guardian is needed to collect data on children aged below the national age of consent). Though as far as I know a specific system hasn't been mandated, so web site owners need to take reasonable measures.

I don't know how the German and French systems work, but I'll guess that we could add this to the everlasting debate about universal government ID systems. When everyone has a government issued ID then establishing age isn't very complicated.

From where are you both getting the idea that Germany has such a system? I live there and do occasionally have to visit various types of website for errr ... research purposes, and have never seen any age verification systems. The only time I can ever remember websites asking for your age is when visiting brewery/distillery sites. In these cases only a DOB needs to be entered without any proof.

I just assumed that Ivan was correct.

WFJ wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:44 pm From where are you both getting the idea that Germany has such a system? I live there and do occasionally have to visit various types of website for errr ... research purposes, and have never seen any age verification systems. The only time I can ever remember websites asking for your age is when visiting brewery/distillery sites. In these cases only a DOB needs to be entered without any proof.

I have read it in the press, and it seems to check out. There are German website age verification agents. Why would they exist if they weren't needed? The one I just linked explains its existence thus:

Internet content that can be problematic for children and adolescents of a specific age group may, according to the law, only be offered if the provider renders them secure using a technical safeguard. Roughly speaking, the law classifies cases into two groups: particularly serious content, e.g. p.rnography and extreme violence, must be offered in so-called closed groups, which presents a technical hurdle. In the case of content that is not serious to the same degree but which can still be problematic, providers have three possible ways of complying with the law: technical labels that recognised youth protection programs will then be able to read und interpret, technical means that create access barriers in various ways, or watersheds that make certain content available only after a specific time of day, as is customary in television programming.

That seems to state pretty clearly that there is a class of content in Germany which is only accessible after a proper checking mechanism. I have read the same thing in journalistic articles on some lawyers' websites. On this law firm's website, the "technical safeguard" is described as follows: "This will typically require the service provider to issue a PIN to an adult user after conducting an age verification check." It also explains that it doesn't have to be completely water-tight, and it doesn't have to be precisely that method.

I also came across news articles referring to recent tweaks in the law, which only makes sense if the law to exist in the first place.

It is possible that your research has only extended to the grade of website not requiring these "technical measures". Or, I don't know, you live there, you tell me.

IvanV wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:43 pm

WFJ wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:44 pm From where are you both getting the idea that Germany has such a system? I live there and do occasionally have to visit various types of website for errr ... research purposes, and have never seen any age verification systems. The only time I can ever remember websites asking for your age is when visiting brewery/distillery sites. In these cases only a DOB needs to be entered without any proof.

I have read it in the press, and it seems to check out. There are German website age verification agents. Why would they exist if they weren't needed? The one I just linked explains its existence thus:

Internet content that can be problematic for children and adolescents of a specific age group may, according to the law, only be offered if the provider renders them secure using a technical safeguard. Roughly speaking, the law classifies cases into two groups: particularly serious content, e.g. p.rnography and extreme violence, must be offered in so-called closed groups, which presents a technical hurdle. In the case of content that is not serious to the same degree but which can still be problematic, providers have three possible ways of complying with the law: technical labels that recognised youth protection programs will then be able to read und interpret, technical means that create access barriers in various ways, or watersheds that make certain content available only after a specific time of day, as is customary in television programming.

That seems to state pretty clearly that there is a class of content in Germany which is only accessible after a proper checking mechanism. I have read the same thing in journalistic articles on some lawyers' websites. On this law firm's website, the "technical safeguard" is described as follows: "This will typically require the service provider to issue a PIN to an adult user after conducting an age verification check." It also explains that it doesn't have to be completely water-tight, and it doesn't have to be precisely that method.

I also came across news articles referring to recent tweaks in the law, which only makes sense if the law to exist in the first place.

It is possible that your research has only extended to the grade of website not requiring these "technical measures". Or, I don't know, you live there, you tell me.

This is a voluntary code. The grade of website where these technical measures might apply includes things like YouTube—which now I think about has at times asked for credit card age verification to see certain videos, which I have never bothered to do—or the TV stations' websites. This is very different to what the UK is proposing— or at least was proposing, assuming this is a rehash of Teresa May's ideas—that would see all sites identified as 'adult' being blocked if they did not introduce suitable checks.

WFJ wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:12 pm This is a voluntary code. The grade of website where these technical measures might apply includes things like YouTube—which now I think about has at times asked for credit card age verification to see certain videos, which I have never bothered to do—or the TV stations' websites. This is very different to what the UK is proposing— or at least was proposing, assuming this is a rehash of Teresa May's ideas—that would see all sites identified as 'adult' being blocked if they did not introduce suitable checks.

It looks like I may have fallen for the common British trick of lying about what other countries do, as justification for some illiberal measure.

Some further research indicates that there are some recent discussions in Germany about making these checks compulsory, so presumably they aren't.

Google currently have an age verification system for you tube.
I found this out when I wanted to watch one of Toyah & Robert Fripp's amusing sunday lunch covers & also the Kurt Zouma cat-kicking video.
That required an actual credit card

tom p wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:43 am Google currently have an age verification system for you tube.
I found this out when I wanted to watch one of Toyah & Robert Fripp's amusing sunday lunch covers & also the Kurt Zouma cat-kicking video.
That required an actual credit card

For the Netherlands perhaps, but apparently not for UK (unless you were looking at a particularly racy Toyah/Fripp video). I'm not interested in seeing a man kicking a cat, not even for 'research' purposes.

Gfamily wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:41 pm

tom p wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:43 am Google currently have an age verification system for you tube.
I found this out when I wanted to watch one of Toyah & Robert Fripp's amusing sunday lunch covers & also the Kurt Zouma cat-kicking video.
That required an actual credit card

For the Netherlands perhaps, but apparently not for UK (unless you were looking at a particularly racy Toyah/Fripp video). I'm not interested in seeing a man kicking a cat, not even for 'research' purposes.

It was only one of their videos, so it may have been racier than the others & triggered some over-sensitive algorithm (or a nitwit). Or maybe it's only in NL.
For the cat video, i had seen a still and it didn't look bad, but the video is far worse than has been described. He's clearly encouraging a kid (presumably his son) into joining in with the feline torture.

just got banned from twitter for calling rees-mogg a c.nt