Scrutable

noggins wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 10:11 am Arent GCSEs graded on a curve?

No. Like many higher and professional exams, they are standard set on the basis of expert judgements. It is inevitable that exams vary in difficulty at the moment*, and this must be taken into account in setting pass marks and grade boundaries. These are essentially social constructs, but nonetheless seem to work - GCSEs for instance are quite good predictors of later academic performance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ed-to-know

*my tribe has always been interested in using Item Response Theory and other approaches to identify the absolute difficulty of items, but of course that only works when an item has been used before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_response_theory

Not the best wiki article, but then I'm supposed to be at work...

Tristan wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:52 am

Lew Dolby wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:33 am Doesn't the level of language required depend on what jobs a migrant might be able to do if/when then can work ?

I'd of* thought that a nurse, eg, would require a greater skill at English than say a general labourer.

Yes it does. Which is why the announcement is about specific visas/routes for skilled workers.

Yes, there's a big difference between responding to 'Have you got this in size 12?' and 'I think I'm having a heart attack'.

Allo V Psycho wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 11:19 am

noggins wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 10:11 am Arent GCSEs graded on a curve?

No. Like many higher and professional exams, they are standard set on the basis of expert judgements. It is inevitable that exams vary in difficulty at the moment*, and this must be taken into account in setting pass marks and grade boundaries. These are essentially social constructs, but nonetheless seem to work - GCSEs for instance are quite good predictors of later academic performance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ed-to-know

*my tribe has always been interested in using Item Response Theory and other approaches to identify the absolute difficulty of items, but of course that only works when an item has been used before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_response_theory

Not the best wiki article, but then I'm supposed to be at work...

Grade 9 is the top X proportion of those meeting grade 8, IIRC

shpalman wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 6:32 am Maybe they could have told us which exam they would actually have to pass.

They do. Unless they intend to tear up the whole carefully designed system and start again, which is unlikely.

So you have to pass a Secure English Language Test of the appropriate level, and these come in 6 levels of difficulty as defined by the Council of Europe standards. There are a number of providers of SELTs, and both the providers and their tests have to be approved. The level of test you need to pass depends upon what type of entry you want. For example, skilled worker requires B1 level.

So unless they are tearing up this whole system, which seems unlikely, the implication is that certain types of entry will need to pass a higher level of test than currently. And my guess would be that B1 is what they mean by A-level standard, as currently required for skilled workers, but not for many others. I linked the definitions of the levels above, and the present requirements of standard for visa type. And I think that because B2 sounds more like a degree level skill in a foreign language. But by all means look at those levels I linked and form your own judgment.

And we should recall that there is a certain amount of performative politics in these announcements, which is why they leave a bit of wiggle room to be sensible about it.

jimbob wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 11:40 am

Allo V Psycho wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 11:19 am

noggins wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 10:11 am Arent GCSEs graded on a curve?

No. Like many higher and professional exams, they are standard set on the basis of expert judgements. It is inevitable that exams vary in difficulty at the moment*, and this must be taken into account in setting pass marks and grade boundaries. These are essentially social constructs, but nonetheless seem to work - GCSEs for instance are quite good predictors of later academic performance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ed-to-know

*my tribe has always been interested in using Item Response Theory and other approaches to identify the absolute difficulty of items, but of course that only works when an item has been used before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Item_response_theory

Not the best wiki article, but then I'm supposed to be at work...

Grade 9 is the top X proportion of those meeting grade 8, IIRC

Grade 7 is the basis for Grade 9 if I remember correctly (and still at work, so all this is IIRC too!)
The standard setting doesn't take place at every grade boundary but only at certain ones, of which Grade 7 is one if memory serves. Intermediate grades between the standard set ones are determined with reference to two of the standard set grades, e.g. Grade Y is set to be half way between Grade X and Grade Z. Grade 9 isn't a 'between, so is set on solely on a lower grade. But the point is the whole scale shifts up and down on the basis of how difficult the exams are. The scale is criterion referenced, not norm referenced, even if every point is not criterion referenced.

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 3:06 pm

JQH wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:22 pm Let's hope this kind of thinking does not catch on world wide; what if South Africa started expelling pale people who can't speak Zulu or Xhosa?

Why would they? It has 11 national languages, of which English is one and the main language used across government, business and higher education.

True but many people do not like using a colonial language. I can quite easily see a populist party coming to power including ceasing its use as one of their demands. Sure it would be a massive act of self harm but they would not be the first country to adopt a disastrous populist policy.

JQH wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 1:42 pm

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 3:06 pm

JQH wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:22 pm Let's hope this kind of thinking does not catch on world wide; what if South Africa started expelling pale people who can't speak Zulu or Xhosa?

Why would they? It has 11 national languages, of which English is one and the main language used across government, business and higher education.

True but many people do not like using a colonial language. I can quite easily see a populist party coming to power including ceasing its use as one of their demands. Sure it would be a massive act of self harm but they would not be the first country to adopt a disastrous populist policy.

Even so it’s a daft comparison. We’re not talking about expelling British citizens who don’t have an A-level in English. We’re talking about a requirement to be fluent in English at a particular level to get a visa for high skilled jobs. There’s a bit of a difference.

IvanV wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 11:54 am
And we should recall that there is a certain amount of performative politics in these announcements

As there is in the reaction to them, as demonstrated by Petra on the original post.

I thought that grade 8 was equivalent to A* and 9 to "the top proportion (usually 5%) taking the exam.

Bewildered wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:41 pm I live and work in a country where I don’t speak the language.

Wales?