Scrutable

So immigrants will have better English than many English people?

This points to more of a problem with English education in schools than an issue with the policy. Of course, I'm assuming this means an A-level level of fluency and communication rather than knowledge of A-level literature. If so, what's the issue with expecting people who want to live here to have fluency in the language?

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:59 pm This points to more of a problem with English education in schools than an issue with the policy. Of course, I'm assuming this means an A-level level of fluency and communication rather than knowledge of A-level literature. If so, what's the issue with expecting people who want to live here to have fluency in the language?

But why is it compared to A-Level English (which most of us didn't do anyway), and not one of the qualifications of English as a foreign language?

Let's hope this kind of thinking does not catch on world wide; what if South Africa started expelling pale people who can't speak Zulu or Xhosa?

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:59 pm This points to more of a problem with English education in schools than an issue with the policy. Of course, I'm assuming this means an A-level level of fluency and communication rather than knowledge of A-level literature. If so, what's the issue with expecting people who want to live here to have fluency in the language?

I live and work in a country where I don’t speak the language.

shpalman wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:13 pm

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:59 pm This points to more of a problem with English education in schools than an issue with the policy. Of course, I'm assuming this means an A-level level of fluency and communication rather than knowledge of A-level literature. If so, what's the issue with expecting people who want to live here to have fluency in the language?

But why is it compared to A-Level English (which most of us didn't do anyway), and not one of the qualifications of English as a foreign language?

It doesn't actually say that. It just says an A-level equivalent standard. And what does that mean?

Actual immigrants have to pass a Secure English Language Test (SELT). These come in 6 different levels, which are rated according to the six levels of the Council of Europe’s Common European Framework for Language Learning (CELF), A1 (lowest), A2, B1, B2, C1 and C2 (highest), as the CoE set out here. The level you need to pass depends upon what visa or right to remain you are applying for - there's a lot of options.

This helpful table from Trinity College London shows the level that various migrant types are currently required to achieve. Quite a lot of types currently need only achieve A1, the most basic level. The only type of migrant currently required to achieve levels of C1 or above on this scale are for student visas.

Presumably what this means is that these levels will be increased. But who is to say quite what "A-level equivalent" means. My guess would be that it might refers to the standard of language competence that would enable a native English speaker to pass the language part of an A-level in a foreign language. And that is probably Level B1 on the CEFL scale.

Bewildered wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:41 pm

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:59 pm This points to more of a problem with English education in schools than an issue with the policy. Of course, I'm assuming this means an A-level level of fluency and communication rather than knowledge of A-level literature. If so, what's the issue with expecting people who want to live here to have fluency in the language?

I live and work in a country where I don’t speak the language.

Which is not unusual in some places. If you are an employer in Hungary or Finland trying to recruit workers from abroad, you aren't going to get very many if they have to have much competence in Hungarian or Finnish respectively.

The funniest one I heard was a Pole I met at a campsite in Iceland, about 20 years ago, who worked at a fish processing plant. He said that the plant only employed Polish speakers. Already by that time, Polish had become the lingua franca of much of the fish processing industry in Iceland.

JQH wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:22 pm Let's hope this kind of thinking does not catch on world wide; what if South Africa started expelling pale people who can't speak Zulu or Xhosa?

Why would they? It has 11 national languages, of which English is one and the main language used across government, business and higher education.

IvanV wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:55 pm Presumably what this means is that these levels will be increased. But who is to say quite what "A-level equivalent" means. My guess would be that it might refers to the standard of language competence that would enable a native English speaker to pass the language part of an A-level in a foreign language. And that is probably Level B1 on the CEFL scale.

Yes, this is probably poor comms from government. I very much doubt they mean "must pass an A-level".

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 3:09 pm ... I very much doubt they mean "must pass an A-level".

Wait till next year, when they'll have to chop down the greatest tree in the forest. With... a herring.

Universities will be thankful this is only going to apply to work visas - and not study visas.

Right now many universities are accepting duolingo qualifications as evidence of meeting language requirements.

bob sterman wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 5:15 pm Universities will be thankful this is only going to apply to work visas - and not study visas.

Right now many universities are accepting duolingo qualifications as evidence of meeting language requirements.

I got quite a long talk on this topic from Mrs Y yesterday evening, as she decompressed after a day of doing teaching assistant stuff at UCL involving Chinese students whose range of English capabilities was wider than ideal.

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 3:09 pm

IvanV wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:55 pm Presumably what this means is that these levels will be increased. But who is to say quite what "A-level equivalent" means. My guess would be that it might refers to the standard of language competence that would enable a native English speaker to pass the language part of an A-level in a foreign language. And that is probably Level B1 on the CEFL scale.

Yes, this is probably poor comms from government. I very much doubt they mean "must pass an A-level".

Poor comms? It's almost as if English isn't their first language

Martin Y wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 5:23 pm

bob sterman wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 5:15 pm Universities will be thankful this is only going to apply to work visas - and not study visas.

Right now many universities are accepting duolingo qualifications as evidence of meeting language requirements.

I got quite a long talk on this topic from Mrs Y yesterday evening, as she decompressed after a day of doing teaching assistant stuff at UCL involving Chinese students whose range of English capabilities was wider than ideal.

I use the UCL gym. There are a lot of Chinese students, some of whom barely speak any English. The rumour is they cheat on their language competence exams - but then how do they learn?

I know a maths professor who says standards vary widely in his classes

shpalman wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:13 pm

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:59 pm This points to more of a problem with English education in schools than an issue with the policy. Of course, I'm assuming this means an A-level level of fluency and communication rather than knowledge of A-level literature. If so, what's the issue with expecting people who want to live here to have fluency in the language?

But why is it compared to A-Level English (which most of us didn't do anyway), and not one of the qualifications of English as a foreign language?

Absolutely.

It's silly

shpalman wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:13 pm

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:59 pm This points to more of a problem with English education in schools than an issue with the policy. Of course, I'm assuming this means an A-level level of fluency and communication rather than knowledge of A-level literature. If so, what's the issue with expecting people who want to live here to have fluency in the language?

But why is it compared to A-Level English (which most of us didn't do anyway), and not one of the qualifications of English as a foreign language?

Did more of “us” do A-Level English or an English as a foreign language qualification?

Things may have changed since I did A Level English in the olden days but then it was all lit, no lang. There was no A Level in Eng lang.

Tessa K wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 10:33 pm Things may have changed since I did A Level English in the olden days but then it was all lit, no lang. There was no A Level in Eng lang.

When was that? According to this: https://dickhudson.com/a-level-english-language/ the Lang A-Level started in 1983, though I don’t know how rapidly it spread around the exam boards.

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:03 pm

shpalman wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:13 pm

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 1:59 pm This points to more of a problem with English education in schools than an issue with the policy. Of course, I'm assuming this means an A-level level of fluency and communication rather than knowledge of A-level literature. If so, what's the issue with expecting people who want to live here to have fluency in the language?

But why is it compared to A-Level English (which most of us didn't do anyway), and not one of the qualifications of English as a foreign language?

Did more of “us” do A-Level English or an English as a foreign language qualification?

Maybe they could have told us which exam they would actually have to pass.

shpalman wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 6:32 am

Tristan wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 9:03 pm

shpalman wrote: Wed Oct 15, 2025 2:13 pm
But why is it compared to A-Level English (which most of us didn't do anyway), and not one of the qualifications of English as a foreign language?

Did more of “us” do A-Level English or an English as a foreign language qualification?

Maybe they could have told us which exam they would actually have to pass.

They will. They’re likely still working through that detail. There’ll be a number of steps to go through to do that.

Petra’s wrong btw. In 2025 only 16.6% of results were below grade 3. 2025 results are here: https://analytics.ofqual.gov.uk/apps/GC ... hYfOd4-a6A

Doesn't the level of language required depend on what jobs a migrant might be able to do if/when then can work ?

I'd of* thought that a nurse, eg, would require a greater skill at English than say a general labourer.

Lew Dolby wrote: Thu Oct 16, 2025 8:33 am Doesn't the level of language required depend on what jobs a migrant might be able to do if/when then can work ?

I'd of* thought that a nurse, eg, would require a greater skill at English than say a general labourer.

Yes it does. Which is why the announcement is about specific visas/routes for skilled workers.

Arent GCSEs graded on a curve?

I'm generally in favour of competency in the local language as a requirement for skilled jobs which require communication, I just don't think the academic study of a language is equivalent to being able to speak and understand it. We're all able to use "that" correctly in a sentence, without knowing whatever its definition is and what its grammatical role is called.

I mean, nobody knows all this and it doesn't matter.