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Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:34 pm
by Opti
I really don't know. But I know a few engineers who are creationists.
IANAE.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:43 pm
by Herainestold
No.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:52 pm
by jimbob
Opti wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:34 pm
I really don't know. But I know a few
engineers who are creationists.
IANAE.
I do too. And those that are, they all tend to deal primarily with code, even though they're not actually software engineers.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:10 pm
by sheldrake
Software engineers can take B.Eng or M.Eng degrees and have chartered status too, you know. Most just don't bother because it makes no difference in the job market.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:48 pm
by bjn
Having processes and standards to get software built and released is what turns programming into engineering. Why was something written? How was it designed? How was it written? Who wrote it? How was it tested? How does it integrate into other systems? How does it get released? How do you track known problems? How do you collect new problems? How do you document it? How do you decide what to build next? How do you interact with your users? Formalising all that, and more, is an engineering process and not just hacking sh.t together.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:45 am
by Woodchopper
Yes, it seems to me that engineering is using science to make things. I don’t see why that should exclude software, especially as most physical objects built by engineers these days probably have a software element.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:29 am
by Matatouille
Software engineers won't replace your washing machine, so no.
But seriously, engineering is a process as the scientific method is a process, so its less a question of what you're doing as how you're doing it that makes something engineering, to my mind.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:11 am
by Lew Dolby
Is "engineer" a protected occupation name like midwife or dietician ?? If not then anyone can claim to be an engineer (but presumably not "chartered engineer" unless they've got the piece of paper to prove it)
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:27 am
by Little waster
sheldrake wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:10 pm
Software engineers can take B.Eng or M.Eng degrees and have chartered status too, you know. Most just don't bother because it makes no difference in the job market.
Homeopathic doctors can take M.D or PhD.Med degrees and have GMC registered status too, you know. Most just don’t bother because it makes no difference in the job market.
I can’t say that’s the most convincing of arguments TBH. Bjn and woodchopper made a much better fist of it.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:16 pm
by sheldrake
Little waster wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:27 am
sheldrake wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:10 pm
Software engineers can take B.Eng or M.Eng degrees and have chartered status too, you know. Most just don't bother because it makes no difference in the job market.
Homeopathic doctors can take M.D or PhD.Med degrees and have GMC registered status too, you know. Most just don’t bother because it makes no difference in the job market.
If they learned homeopathy in their MD then your argument would make sense.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:32 pm
by Pucksoppet
It can be, but most software is not engineered. That which is, is rather expensive as a result of the non-exclusive set of processes listed by bjn, which require person-hours, which are usually in remunerated positions.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:21 pm
by plodder
Doesn't involve cranes or diggers therefore meh
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:35 pm
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:21 pm
Doesn't involve cranes or diggers therefore meh
It can involve cranes and diggers actually. Be careful out there.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:23 pm
by veravista
Lew Dolby wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:11 am
Is "engineer" a protected occupation name like midwife or dietician ?? If not then anyone can claim to be an engineer (but presumably not "chartered engineer" unless they've got the piece of paper to prove it)
No, not protected in the slightest in the UK, unlike in Europe. Being chartered isn't but that's only a conferred title by individual institutes. In certain engineering disciplines being chartered is a condition of the job (much like accountancy) and a legal requirement. However, the common understanding of 'engineer' in the UK is anything from a plumber upwards. Pisses me off a bit to be honest, especially as it took me years to get my chartered status at which point I considered myself a proper engineer.
I do have a very good friend who I would consider a proper software engineer however. He writes control and interface software for mining equipment and whole mines, he started off as an electrical engineer, I mentored him through a mechanical engineering degree while he taught himself programming. As part of his current job he has knocked up an android app to track, control and secure all the equipment underground. He can track equipment miles underground in Siberia and Vietnam from his phone while we're having a pint or two
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:55 am
by jimbob
veravista wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:23 pm
Lew Dolby wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:11 am
Is "engineer" a protected occupation name like midwife or dietician ?? If not then anyone can claim to be an engineer (but presumably not "chartered engineer" unless they've got the piece of paper to prove it)
No, not protected in the slightest in the UK, unlike in Europe. Being chartered isn't but that's only a conferred title by individual institutes. In certain engineering disciplines being chartered is a condition of the job (much like accountancy) and a legal requirement. However, the common understanding of 'engineer' in the UK is anything from a plumber upwards. Pisses me off a bit to be honest, especially as it took me years to get my chartered status at which point I considered myself a proper engineer.
I do have a very good friend who I would consider a proper software engineer however. He writes control and interface software for mining equipment and whole mines, he started off as an electrical engineer, I mentored him through a mechanical engineering degree while he taught himself programming. As part of his current job he has knocked up an android app to track, control and secure all the equipment underground. He can track equipment miles underground in Siberia and Vietnam from his phone while we're having a pint or two
I recently discovered that one of my colleagues had spent most of his career as an automotive software engineer - I'd thought his background was primarily hardware, which is sort of what he does now. I've moved fields slightly so speak to him more often both for work and socially.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:22 am
by El Pollo Diablo
There are quite a few applications of software which are safety critical, not least in astronomical eng, aeronautical eng, railways, etc. The software in those tends to be very carefully built, with lots of checks, which I'd say is definitely part of an engineering process
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:49 am
by plodder
But how's about the definition of "we have a commercial need and the software works" which is 99% of software engineering. Is that good enough for you lot? Would you call someone who bolts ads into a website an engineer?
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:58 am
by jimbob
That's coding.
Any systemic protection against fraud could be software engineering.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:00 am
by dyqik
plodder wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:49 am
But how's about the definition of "we have a commercial need and the software works" which is 99% of software engineering. Is that good enough for you lot? Would you call someone who bolts ads into a website an engineer?
That's engineering. Making a product that works well enough to fit the requirements. Same as for making a process to make and print crappy logos on cheap t-shirts.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:35 pm
by plodder
Right, exactly. Solving any problem that makes someone money and it's "engineering". Translate the same problem into the not-for-profit sector and "engineering" becomes "I done a clever". So no, software programmers are not automatically engineers.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:51 pm
by El Pollo Diablo
Not automatically, no. The question of whether they're engineers or not comes down to whether they wear short-sleeved shirts all the time and don't understand how high their trousers should be.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:03 pm
by bolo
El Pollo Diablo wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:51 pm
Not automatically, no. The question of whether they're engineers or not comes down to whether they wear short-sleeved shirts all the time and don't understand how high their trousers should be.
The qualifications have been relaxed. In addition to the above, they used to have to wear pocket protectors.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:29 pm
by plodder
I think you mean grubby heavy metal t-shirt.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:34 pm
by dyqik
plodder wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:29 pm
I think you mean grubby heavy metal t-shirt.
Plaid flannel shirt and jeans in my case. And yes, I'm doing engineering, in that I'm designing a feed horn and making sure it meets spec. and is manufacturable. And also writing some code to coding standards while my simulations are running.
Re: Is software engineering, well, engineering?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:43 pm
by bolo
Lew Dolby wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:11 am
Is "engineer" a protected occupation name like midwife or dietician ?? If not then anyone can claim to be an engineer (but presumably not "chartered engineer" unless they've got the piece of paper to prove it)
In the United States, certain categories of engineering work require licensure as a Professional Engineer.
https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe
But you don't have to be a licensed PE to call yourself an engineer. And I don't know whether software types commonly get PE licenses.